tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post7132436410483170455..comments2023-12-23T00:19:35.005-08:00Comments on ADAM'S ALE: FRIDAY FAIR: PRAY MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS THAT THIS, THE WAY WE ARE PRAYING, MAY BE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD THE ALMIGHTY FATHERFr. Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13201561855047420853noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-67923872568754306612009-01-22T15:30:00.000-08:002009-01-22T15:30:00.000-08:00In our parish, we were instructed to hold our hand...In our parish, we were instructed to hold our hands in the orans position as a gesture of surrender. So the imagery of the "hold-up" is pretty strong.<BR/>Further, we were told that the person of authority within the diocese said that the proper orans position was not with hands to heaven, but in surrender. Our liturgist said to do otherwise (such as extending hands heavenward) was, according to this diocesan authority, doing it wrong. So there you go.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15031042862597300242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-3079683906395305992009-01-14T20:15:00.000-08:002009-01-14T20:15:00.000-08:00Once again I am moved to ask how the first Mass wa...Once again I am moved to ask how the first Mass was celebrated, and for that matter, how were/are secretly-held Masses celebrated, i.e., at Fr. Kolbe's cot-side. Our most important unity is in being together; we aren't a choreography group. Indeed, tho, it is frustrating for me to stand beside my husband with my hands folded while he lifts his arms as if he is a carnival barker--"Come one, come all!" --and about takes me out. (If everyone did that, we'd have a great production of The 600 Stooges.) He has also started to pray at 180 decibels, also because he thinks it is expected. I've all I can do not to throw a half-nelson on him 'til he settles down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-81294873787107622382009-01-13T11:02:00.000-08:002009-01-13T11:02:00.000-08:00Once I learned, I stopped. I only did that because...Once I learned, I stopped. I only did that because everyone else did it. Now that I've studied the Liturgical documents, I know better now, so I don't plain and simple.Joe of St. Thérèsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06506671882770822003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-28195964172250863472009-01-10T17:51:00.000-08:002009-01-10T17:51:00.000-08:00Dear Father, I decided not to continue the Orans p...Dear Father, I decided not to continue the Orans posture at Mass when I read somewhere that to use it was to usurp the role of the priest. (Use of the posture outside of Mass was OK.)Catholics used to pray the rosary during Mass. Now we don't. Some forms of prayer are not appropriate during Mass. Most people who use the Orans posture during Mass probably don't know enough about the rubrics of the Mass to make an informed decision one way or the other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-75646925245582628392009-01-10T16:33:00.000-08:002009-01-10T16:33:00.000-08:00Uncle Jim - Well - who knows? There is a circle o...Uncle Jim - Well - who knows? There is a circle of gestures from which we may choose - and others that are not appropriate for one reason or another. Just remember we have just reunited with our Heavenly Father through the lifting up of Christ and the first words out of our mouth is, "Our Father." So just pray - how need you stand to do this?Fr. Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13201561855047420853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-29547104141422003792009-01-10T16:16:00.000-08:002009-01-10T16:16:00.000-08:00Well,Since you asked - as you can see it is not ex...Well,<BR/><BR/>Since you asked - as you can see it is not exactly regulated. In private prayer if it is helpful to your spirituality do it. At Mass you can see it is not expressly forbidden - but then again neither is crossing your eyes. Conversely neither is it called for.<BR/><BR/>That a deacon is NOT to do it but a priest is gives us a clue that perhaps it was not envisioned. So if you ask my personal opinion it would be not to do it. At a minimum we certainly cannot tell people that they MUST do it. So the answer lays somewhere in the middle. For the time being, if you get something out of it - do it as long as it is not disruptive. <BR/><BR/>This is my opinion. <BR/><BR/>(Mary B - I too have been in congregations where it looked like the they were being held up at gun point.)Fr. Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13201561855047420853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-627871757403108502009-01-10T16:12:00.000-08:002009-01-10T16:12:00.000-08:00so if we cannot do orans, what is it were supposed...so if we cannot do orans, what is it were supposed to do .... grab hold of the top of the pew in front of us and hold on? or put my hands in my pocket? or just let my arm and hands hang down at my side? or, as a commenter above mentions, just 'fold my hands'? why would folding hands be any different? is that prescribed somewhere as the proper posture? if we being told what not to do, are we told somewhere what we are to do?uncle jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01879341171634900790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-42779220212526200972009-01-10T15:56:00.000-08:002009-01-10T15:56:00.000-08:00Father V. I am in the Cleveland Diocese when we s...Father V. I am in the Cleveland Diocese when we stopped holding hands several years ago we were told to hold our arms in the "surrender position." That is holding your arms up like when someone pokes you in the back and says "stick 'em up." That we are surrendering to God or something of that effect.<BR/><BR/>In our parish people do both orans and surrender positions. The majority do the surrender position.<BR/><BR/>MaryBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-27523040975971074062009-01-10T15:44:00.000-08:002009-01-10T15:44:00.000-08:00Sources?Or mere opinion?Sources?<BR/><BR/>Or mere opinion?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-1222673565767362262009-01-10T09:38:00.000-08:002009-01-10T09:38:00.000-08:00So Fr V, Help, should we or should we not use the...So Fr V, Help, should we or should we not use the orans position for the Our Father?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-50893782605607337782009-01-10T04:51:00.000-08:002009-01-10T04:51:00.000-08:00Knuckledragger ~ There's a few people in my parish...Knuckledragger ~ There's a few people in my parish signaling "TOUCHDOWN!"Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-14369340420510795652009-01-09T22:03:00.000-08:002009-01-09T22:03:00.000-08:00Adoro said: It's always made me very uncomfortable...Adoro said: It's always made me very uncomfortable, so once I learned that I didn't HAVE to do it...I didn't anymore.<BR/><BR/>LOL...I concur. Two years ago, I returned to the Church after a 30+ year hiatus and found my fellow parishioners engaged in this curious practice. I opted for the traditional hands folded position, even though I didn't know the Church's current ruling on that. (At the time)<BR/><BR/>BTW, due to proximity of their neighbors, most congregants don't assume a proper, priestly orans position; they look as if they are engaged in some pagan ritual, perhaps awaiting the light beam from a UFO. ;^)knuckledraggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15954856476613599743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-80012803434759372712009-01-09T20:21:00.000-08:002009-01-09T20:21:00.000-08:00i adopted the orans for personal prayer many [30 o...i adopted the orans for personal prayer many [30 or so] years ago. <BR/><BR/>i may use it with arms outstretched and hand raised high at a charismatic prayer meeting - i call this orans major. at other times it is with elbows still at my side, forearms extended to the front with palms up - i call this orans minor ... my own descriptives for convenience in understanding what i'm describing.<BR/><BR/>i consider the Lord's Prayer within the context of the Mass [liturgy] to be a personal, not communal, prayer. i do not hold hands [except in rare cases for reasons of charity when someone grabs mine], but i do use orans minor, my normal posture in personal prayer.<BR/><BR/>so now, you've got me wondering whether or not i need to stop doing this because i may be ignoring some unwritten rubric.<BR/><BR/>what say you?uncle jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01879341171634900790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-1056996633863991202009-01-09T18:44:00.000-08:002009-01-09T18:44:00.000-08:00Keith ~ Every part of the Mass is important. For e...Keith ~ Every part of the Mass is important. For example...there is a reason there are 3 steps to the altar: they stand for the 3 theological virtues. <BR/><BR/>EVERY movement, every gesture, every part of the Mass has a meaning that doesn't necessarily meet the eye. As Father V. explained, the orans is also symbolic, and therefore, in the context of the Mass, it's not proper to pray in the orans position. <BR/><BR/>Obedience honors God more so than the idea oft-purported by relativists that say, "Well, as long as my intention is to do X it's OK". Would you argue the converse, if, by cheating on your wife, you didn't really INTEND to harm her, only do what you felt was right at that given moment? <BR/><BR/>(Yes, that was an extreme example but it follows the same kind of logic often used.) <BR/><BR/>Obedience is a virtue, and unity is called for in the Mass. If some people are doing something improper, even if they don't intend to, it affects the whole. We ALL have to be obedient to the directives, and yes, I do agree that it would be nice to have a list of DO'S and DONT'S. And we do have it; it's call the General Instruction on the Roman Missal. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, the vast majority of Catholics don't know about it and wouldn't bother to read it if it were given to them and they were to be tested on it. <BR/><BR/>And also unfortunately, this topic isn't in it; I'm not sure it was an issue at the time of publication.Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-2350652467761977002009-01-09T13:56:00.000-08:002009-01-09T13:56:00.000-08:00As a product of RCIA I was never told to use the o...As a product of RCIA I was never told to use the orans (hold my hands up or not to) when saying Our Father. I just followed what everyone else was doing. My wife, a cradle Catholic does not hold her hands up, I asked one day why and she simply said that see never did it growing up and felt uncomfortable doing it. <BR/> <BR/>So, if I’ve read this right, I’m not to hold my hands up while saying the Our Father. You think that an organization as large as the Catholic Church, they could make a easy to read book on the do and don’ts. Just when I think I understand it, guess what, it’s wrong. <BR/> <BR/>So, do you think God really cares if I’m holding up my hands or not holding up my hand while saying the Our Father? The God, I know is glad that I came to His house to offer Him Praise and Worship.Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06903202914396887882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-41529586170892660212009-01-09T13:52:00.000-08:002009-01-09T13:52:00.000-08:00Kat ~ The law has never really been abrogated, but...Kat ~ The law has never really been abrogated, but there is a citation that it's based on custom. Jimmy Akin and Fr. Z. have written on this, I think St. Louis Catholic has. Basically, it can be encouraged, but not enforced. It's considered to be a personal devotion. <BR/><BR/>I wear one, and have been criticized by some of the laity for it, but have been given direct permission by my Pastor to wear it (when the question came up.) <BR/><BR/>As far as the why of why we don't wear it anymore..well, ask the reporter at Vatican II who, as usual in being a reporter, ran his or her mouth off and called it "fact". I think the veils got burned with all the bras and the GIRM on a bed of hashish. <BR/><BR/>(Did I say that out loud?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-86831578546600692222009-01-09T10:55:00.000-08:002009-01-09T10:55:00.000-08:00Ok, I have a question...Women and veils at mass......Ok, I have a question...<BR/><BR/>Women and veils at mass.... yes? no? Why not?Kathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14675918069376931859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5745814378416915364.post-6012063650743769932009-01-09T09:56:00.000-08:002009-01-09T09:56:00.000-08:00It's always made me very uncomfortable, so once I ...It's always made me very uncomfortable, so once I learned that I didn't HAVE to do it...I didn't anymore. <BR/><BR/>A few years ago I was very much struck by Fr.'s position during the Our Father. He was standing directly under and slightly in front of our very large crucifix, and suddenly the full weight of the symbolism and meaning of this gesture came home to me. <BR/><BR/>Maybe even more so now that I've attended an EF Mass where God was the sole focus, and I could see so clearly how the priest is praying FOR US! Yes, we are praying, too, but we aren't speaking for ourselves. HE IS! And in that is both his humility at being chosen as a speaker to God on our behalf, and us, in our need to rely on the one God has chosen to speak for us. <BR/><BR/>(Hope that long sentence made sense...) <BR/><BR/>The more I learn, the more the use of the orans at Mass makes me cringe. Elsewhere...fine. At Mass...there should be a clear declaration made in the rubrics as to the position of the laity. <BR/><BR/>This came up when I was on the Liturgy commission and we did see from all the documentation we found that the orans is discouraged, or, if not outright so, it is not prescribed. Using logic and intellect, one can clearly see that it is a position that in that context belongs to the priest alone. <BR/><BR/>I also noticed at a recent Mass that had 2 concelebrants that they also stood with folded hands as did the deacon. <BR/><BR/>Amazing people don't seem to take a hint from what's going on in front of them.Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.com